Make a 90 degree angle on chain ?

I was wondering how to make the outer corner a sharp right / 90 degree angle ? ... in keeping with the inner corner & general 'squareness' of the pattern ?
At present the outer corner is curved; I'd like the 3 picots to form a sharp angle.
All suggestions are appreciated ; Thanks

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Two options that come to mind.
1) Block it very sharply so that the middle picot is pulled to the desired angle.
2) Make the corner chain a tad bit longer, and manipulate the picots to the desired angle.

I've been experimenting with lock stitches - try one right at the corner.

A lock stitch did cross my mind, but would it not show especially in a lighter shade ?

Yes, it would! Hmm, okay, what about a reverse dimple? Put a striver on the underside of the chain one stitch before the corner, then do a downward join one stitch after the corner. But if you don't want the lighter colour to show, it will have to be a slope & roll join (which twists the chain) or a Catherine Wheel Join (which means you need two shuttles).

Mind you, I haven't actually done this. Just extrapolating from some similar experiments...)

I think what Lynn suggested as #2 would work technically! Grace, Muskaan, I think the lock stitch leaves a cleft and thereafter makes the chain really loose.
Again.. I think. A picot join close to the corner (a vsp) should make it firm and good. Even if you add a lock stitch . you may try making almost an invisible vsp join , between the previous leg and leg to start. I can try this out and confirm.

Usha, would your picot join be a bit like my 'reverse dimple'? (I invented that term on the fly - it probably should be something else entirely - underside join?) It's just occurred to me that there is also the pointed chain that Jon Yusoff once blogged about. (Unfortunately, I'm having trouble finding that post.) She made the chain bend more sharply by putting some extra bulk in the cap.

Hello Grace,

Pls let me know how this "reverse dimple" is made. What I thought was a small picot join at the corners will make the corner sharp and also leave the chains firm. This is what I inferred from Lynn's recommendations.
I will try the same in the coming week and post. May be Lynn would add more explanation to her suggestions tomorrow.

Best Regards
Usha

I've seen two instances of square corners. The first involved adding a second core thread to the chain. Then you put a vsp at the point where you want the corner. When you close the chain, you use the extra core thread to pull the chain together and thus you have extra thread to make the square. They were described under "Square Rings" on the needle tatting website, but there might be another listing of instructions for them using shuttles. Square rings with needles are made like Mock Rings.

The second involved using a lock stitch before and after the corner.. The perimeter of a circle is always the shortest way around anything, so whenever you pull on a core thread it wants to curve. Another idea for getting the effect might be to use a balanced double stitch before and after the corner. The BDS resists curving.. it wants to stay straight. I think I've seen it on vintage patterns where there is a tiny josephine ring that fills the corner.

Okay, Usha, here's my elaboration of my second suggestion. Chains want to curve unless you do something drastic. Those suggestions have already been mentioned here: vsp, balanced double stitch, Grace's 'reversed dimple'. These work in their own fashion, but they are all fiddly. I like things nice and simple whenever possible. So, when I've wanted a more squared corner, I've tatted an extra stitch or two before and after the middle picot. This helps the chain maintain the same sort of curve at the beginning and end, but you can pull the middle picot into a sharper point without distorting the rest of the chain. A vsp picot helps keep the point nice and stiff. But, if you'll notice, even the more 'squared' chains in the middle of the motif still have a bit of a curve to them.

Now, this is only the way I do it. I'm sure there are technical methods that will give a better result, if totally square is what you're after. I think it's a matter of personal aesthitical preferences. I just happen to prefer even squared chains to maintain the same sort of soft curve where possible. Sharp points very seldom appeal to me in tatting. It's not like we're quilting prairie points.

Judy, Lynn,

Good Morning.. Thank you for the detailed notes
Let me try this, I was thinking about the corner being angled at 90 .. making it sharp and stiff. While thinking about the vsp join, I did not consider the rings at the centre of the square that can distort the shape. May be one square is simple enough to try . Let me check.

Best Regards
Usha

I have hit on another way of explaining my 'reverse dimple'. It's really a teeny-weeny mock ring. Yes, that's a more standard way to explain it. Sorry for the confusion!

I believe Frivole used a one-stitch SCMR for her Snow Crystals snowflake. You can see the angle in the chain here: http://leblogdefrivole.blogspot.sg/p/patterns.html

Thank you everybody, for chipping in - there are so very many possibilities I can now try out !!!
I agree with Lynn - both about keeping things simple & about not having too sharp an angle. The daintiness & lacy-ness of tatting will usually be lost.
But thanks, again, for the varied possibilities. Would love to see how each one turns out :-)

Grace, I've tried & used Jon's Pointed Chain (I will upload my pics later; I liked the effect they created !). It does add a slight point to an otherwise curved chain, but not a 90 degree angle.

Here's the image & the complete tutorial from Jon : http://tatsaway.blogspot.in/2011/06/pointed-chain.html

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Just checked out the Snow Crystals snowflake - yes, pretty angular ! One-stitch SCMR seems like a very easy way to accomplish the effect :-)

Grace,
here are the 2 samples of same edging, one done normally, & the other with Pointed Chains, using Jon's technique. I like the latter one better, even though it is probably not as neat & even as Jon's . What do you think ?

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I see you have investigated this before! The pointed chain certainly looks better than the lock stitch. I will have to keep that in mind for future design projects...

Hello Lynn, Judy, muskaan, Grace.

I tried all the 4 suggestions (5th one is what the 1 stitch scmr which I did not try, since this has only 4 corners).
1. The corner where I started .. you can see the threads hanging . Pls ignore this for a moment (we call this #1)
2. Is the corner with lock stitch :
Learnings : - 1. if we are working with 2 colors, the lock stitch shows off the blip
2. With no additional technique used , such as a vsp join etc, etc, the lock stitch may not give the 90 deg angle
3. The BDS : What Judy suggested before and after the corner , one BDS on either side of the corner. This I included in the stitch count.
Learnings : The effect is a pointed corner (when done really well -- I did this first time )
The chain remains firm (Thanks to Judy for the suggestion and credits to Ms. Ruth Perry.. ), I like this for the firm bulk it creates at the corner
4. The extra stitch before the corner - Lynn's suggestion
Learnings : The chain adjusts to remain straight during the corner
The corner is round, adjust the tension of the stitches, you see a nice space inside the corner. As Lynn said, it depends on the esthetic preferences of the tatter :)

1. This is where I started. When I started I added a stitch a small vsp (both I did not count in the chain for the motif), When I completed the corner, I took Lynn's route to add an extra stitch and then did a back join of the vsp to close. What I mean by a back join is, when the chain is about to close, I went back the starting corner and did the picot roll join, so as to adjust the tension of the join. No learnings here... :-)

BTW, I used perle cotton for both colors.
Thank you for the suggestions, may be muskaan can do the 1stitch scmr and post back a pic. Muskaan my 1hr Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Best Regards
Usha

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Wow, great. So the BDS is ahead... maybe combine the BDS with the pointed chain or the 1-stitch SCMR? But in your published pattern these should be strictly optional. If I were doing that edging I would probably just do normal ds in the corner.

Yes Grace, if BDS is in the stitch count the we need one extra ds, that is not within the stitch count of the pattern for :
1. Firm chain
2. space around the corner
3. May be "preferred" angle at the corner.

The summary is lock stitch may not do the trick as expected.
BTW, about 1stitch SCMR.. I do not know if it works at the corner, but muskaan might need it at the centre of each leg, to make both the rings on either side at the same time. This will avoid an unnecessary pass of second motif being joined to the previous one in the row with picots.
This is a just a suggestion.

Usha, thank you so very much for the very prompt trials & testing !!! And also for our convo on the subject.
I, too, have done my own trials applying probably all of the options spoken of in this thread, & a couple more. Lots to share about my observations & inferences.

Further, Is it possible to make a Word document & attach here? Or is it better to simply type it all out as Usha has done ?

Trial I :
Over all observation was that many options seemed to create an angle but as soon as one 'closed'/tightened the chain, the curve appeared. However many of these would work if the work (motif/insertion...) is sewn on or supported in any way; but stand-alone pieces would need blocking.

In pic below, are the various options I tried on my 1st attempt.

Comments on each :
1. p, FHS, USHS : I liked it. BUT do not tighten the core thread too much.

1. #40 yarn added to increase bulk as suggested by a tatter : Angle not as sharp; rather like a smooth curve/bend. I think this can be rejected due to the unnecessary complication without desired result.

3 & 4 : Lock Stitch : Acute & sharp angle made; ideal for starry 'V' effect ! But it does leave that 'cleft', making the stitches/tatting seem uneven .

I think 90deg is possible IF applied to a pattern where there is some support to hold shape.

5 & 6 : BDS : Adds bulk but creates a smooth 'angle' or curve which is consistent with the geometry of it's shape.
Rejected for 90deg angle but I like the effect of the BDS (& have since used it for my 1st doodad petal rings ! Glad to have learnt the technique)

7 & 8 : vsps with roll join : Using 2 ds between the vsps before joining, creates unnecessary & unseemly bulk. But I possibly may not have done it properly
I saw much potential, hence have reworked in later trials.

1. Graduated picots : I used 3 picots where the 2 side ones were slightly shorter than the middle one. While the base remains curved, the picots create an outer 90deg angle.
   Great for its extreme simplicity & flow and especially for beginners.
   10 : 1 ds Ring (instead of SCMR, duh!) : In order to hide an unfortunate gap that occurred, I looped the FHS over this ring & pulled it close.
   11 : 1ds Ring : Yes, there is a some angle there. Again, if the pattern is supported, it might work.

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MORE TRIALS, TRYING TO TWEAK SOME OF THE OPTIONS THAT SHOWED POTENTIAL.

1 : 1ds SCMR : not successful. Curve clearly visible
2 : Graduated pictos : Don't seem to be working here.
3 : Lock Stitch / USHS : Very unslightly UNLESS some bulk can be added --- would welcome more suggestions !
4 : vsps & roll join : working here !

Again, some of the above might work if single colour thread is used so that the blips of 2nd color become 'invisible'.

TRIALS III, IV, V :

III : 11/2 ds SCMR works well with this #20 thread. I think, depending on the thickness & texture of thread used, one can calibrate the number of ds & additional half stitches or complete ds required !

IV : I made the entire chain in BDS. However, going by it's geometry, I used the smaller & 'angular' normal ds for corners. But even these didn't seem to fill the space properly.
Then the 11/2ds SCMR made a nice 90deg corner But left that color blip. Good for single color work, though !

V : vsps & roll joins : Only 1ds between 2 vsps is ideal in this case. 2ds makes the work protrude when joined, almost like a solid picot.
However, I like the possibilities of using this 'solid picot' for other projects, especially in freeform tatting !

Phew! That's all I have for now.
Would greatly appreciate comments & feedback.
My apologies for not thanking each poster individually. But I have tried to incorporate ALL the suggestions after reading each one in detail, as far as my abilities go.

Thanks again
Muskaan

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Wow! I am really impressed. I think you've certainly done enough to pick a method of making your corner - except that, for the extra core thread (2. in Trial I), did you skip a couple of stitches at the corner? The extra core thread is supposed to not be included at the corner, then you pull it tight, and the circle (a ring usually, not a chain) will become a square. Have a look here: http://www.tatting.de/dol/eckiger_ring.html (I haven't tried it myself so far. )

Hello Muskaan

I think if I were to learn something, honestly, I would try, always something like what you did to this until one gets to the core of the subject.
Thank you for making all these trials for us to choose and pick up the effect that we want when we want fancy chains.

In your TRIAL I : I think #1 is what sits in my head w/o a picot for the angular chain, Wanted to know if you have a pic w/o the picot, how the effect looks like
I have some comments on the way you tried BDS in TRIAL I: The BDS 2 together was Judy recommending at the corner. When the stitches are pulled close, they make the corner bulky and firm. Depending on the thread size, you observe the smooth 90 deg. turn inside the bend, not outside for the reason that 2 caps together spread it over a corner. Also, the inside effect is not visible until you have good count of stitches on the chain where you can adjust the angle appearance by adjusting the stitches. The chain forms like a rectangle with rounded corners.
2, vsp roll join # 7/#8 in TRIAL I :- I tried vsp ds, roll join from the backwards. This seem to give the sharp corner, may be we should try vsp bds roll join.

Best Regards
Usha