You ladies are all so helpful! I'm gonna go through the links and videos you posted. Thank you so much for making the effort to find and add them to the thread! I know that takes time. : )

Both Rhoda Auld and Ruth Perry illustrate the procedure with an extra twist around the 'hand' thread before making the transfer of loops. The padded section affects the 'legs' of the stitch, balancing it, as Ruth says, for sections where you require the work to sit straighter. This is much easier than in K.C's video where the extra twist is added afterwards.

In Rhoda's self-padded double stitch experimentation she found that you could pad either of the half-stitches alone --> 3 legs, or both --> 4 legs. It's all up to what the tatter needs. It's good to have this choice.

NOTE: Some tatters never use this type of double stitch, preferring to tension the double stitches less so that the chains do not curve much at all. [When I tension less in some sections of inverted tatting, I can produce chains which are straight.] Needle tatters could add an extra core thread.

Thank you, Susan. That's why the Dictionary was published.

Judith Good Morning

This particular notes from you brings out the various possibilities of "balancing the chain". Not only there is clarity about "what should be end result", but opens up options for variation coupled effect.

Best Regards
Usha

This needle tatter has used both padding and variable tension.. and both at the same time... to make a reasonable script J for a monogram. Tight curves, rounder ones and straight sections. In the middle I added some small ring flowers to hide the lock stitches..Didn't know the BDS or PBDS at the time.

Dear Judy

I'm assuming that the needle tatter is 'Judy' :-). Could you pls post the pics for us to me motivated.. I'm into doing a bit of homework on this stitch this week.. in all chain.

Best Regards
Usha

Knowing how you love experimenting, Usha, this is another effect you can try. We'd love to see the results sometime.

Good Morning, all :-)

I have been busy with some other stuff, hence could not do a decent trial of the variable BDS as Judy had suggested.

But my own curiosity was too great, hence made a quick chain (I wanted to make a wave-kind of design), using these led me to these observations :
(I used size 20 thread)

1. When both half stitches are ‘balanced/padded’ Equally :
   If one uses the same FHS & SHS counts but with increased padding (2 times, 3 times), it obviously increases the bulk, the thickness, & the stiffness.

2. When 1[SUP]st[/SUP] half stitch is a normal FHS & padding is applied only to the SHS :

A) [1 normal FHS & 1 double-padded SHS] – difference is not visible much – nothing to write home about. Except perhaps the relative thickness of the chain vis-à-vis normal ds chain. This could, perhaps be used as a gradation when transitioning between ds chain & BDS chain – a smoother line ? .

B) [1 normal FHS & double-double-padded SHS] ie. I took the shuttle through the core thread thrice (2 more times than a normal SHS). – Now this created a nice, subtle, braided effect on the front side !!! It is not so much visible as a jagged ‘edge/caps’ But as the slight braiding or twirling on the ‘legs’. Loved this ! It can be used as a cord, for bookmarks, bracelets, etc. And with thicker thread, this effect might be more visible.

C) [1normal FHS & double-double-double SHS] ie. Shuttle over core thread 4 times to make the same SHS. --- very cumbersome to make ; stitch gets all knotted up ; core thread twists in the shuttle.
Hence, as per my quick trial, the limit is double-double padding not more than that (at least for me).

Update :
I just want to clarify that the difference in wraps between the 2 halves of each s-p st should be more than 1 to make any visible difference.

Further, if one is using a finer, silkier thread, it might be easily possible to get 4 or more wraps for a stitch. The “limit” of 3 wraps might apply only to size 20 thread.
I haven’t tried this particular stitch with silk thread, but am basing my opinion/hope on my very recent project using double-strands of art silk thread.

Dear Judith,
I have a question. How does one notate this type of variability or multiple padding ?
When writing or inking the stitches in a pattern, how does one indicate

1. double/triple padding , &
2. variable padding ?
Although I've tried to explain what I did, I was not comfortable with the description. There must be a correct way to do it. Please share ?
Thanks

Good question, Muskaan. And congratulations on your experimentation!

What you have done would appear in very specific designs, so perhaps an explanatory note about self-padding could be included at the start of any pattern? As you have referred to the technique as 'padding', you may have to opt for Rhoda Auld's description of 'self-padded ds' with [however many] *wraps on whichever half-stitch/es. It would be foolish IMHO to try introducing any further terminology for something that is not used on a regular basis.

• 'Wraps' is already known and accepted by tatters: it appears in the directions for tallies (aka petals and leaves), though formed in a different way.

What do you think?

Judith Connors said:

Good question, Muskaan. And congratulations on your experimentation!

What you have done would appear in very specific designs, so perhaps an explanatory note about self-padding could be included at the start of any pattern? As you have referred to the technique as 'padding', you may have to opt for Rhoda Auld's description of 'self-padded ds' with [however many] *wraps on whichever half-stitch/es. It would be foolish IMHO to try introducing any further terminology for something that is not used on a regular basis.

• 'Wraps' is already known and accepted by tatters: it appears in the directions for tallies (aka petals and leaves), though formed in a different way.

What do you think?

Thanks a heap, Judith

I do agree that it would be better for all if we could stick to a particular existing terminology without adding unnecessary new terms …. hence the question.
“Wraps” is a well-encompassing term (pun intended) that conveys the meaning & image clearly. It makes me realize how _Aptly _ it has been named by Rhoda Auld !

As you have already noticed, I have been converted to the self-padding term now, (altho’ I seem to have used all 3 terms in trying to get the imagery & process across, LOL) …

I prefer images & diagrams/schemata to text-only patterns. That was the reason I also enquired about notation. However, a short explanation in the legend or main text pattern or as an introduction is very functional & informative. Especially, as you point out, this stitch will probably be used in special instances.

I have thought of a free-form application for these variable s-p stitches & will try it out & share in a few weeks time when I am free of some WIPs & other more urgent stuff. I’m pretty excited to start, but if I do now, it will remain a WIP ! Patience….

Thanks, again, Judith :-)

Hi muskaan, would love to see pictures of your experiments, especially the braided effect for bookmark tails. Will you be making a blog post about it?

As requested ... here are more observations with accompanying pictures. Now that's a thought, Robin. Having put in so much time, I guess I Will post it on my blog too. :-)

Hello everybody :-)

In my conflict between tatting & sewing, the tatting gods seemed to have won the day : sewing machine broke down & the serviceman will only come tomorrow ! So here are a few more organized trials, with pictures , stitch counts, & more comments/observations …

1 : In this 1[SUP]st[/SUP] picture, all stitches are 5 in number & Both 1[SUP]st[/SUP] & 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] halves of a ds, whether padded or not, are the same.

• As is clearly visible, while count remains same, length & width of each subsequent segment increases with each increase of wrap !
• I found it easier to do the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] half stitch wraps than the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] half.
• This time I managed both 4 wraps And 5 wraps too. Altho’ neatness is lacking.
• When I loosened the 5-wrap ds, it seems to have had a better effect than when the tension was tighter.
• Unknotting/unraveling a s-p ds becomes a tad cumbersome as wrap count goes up.

2 : In this trial, all 1[SUP]st[/SUP] half stitches are normal FHS of a ds (i.e., no padding); padding is applied Only to the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] half stitches. Hence “Variable” s-p ds. Each segment is 7 stitches.

• If stitches are snugged a little loosely, then a subtle ric-rac effect is visible. However, it is a very delicate balance between ‘loose’ & ‘tight’. If too tight, then individuality is lost ; if too loose, then the chain tends to twirl & flop a bit.

3 : Josephine Chains & Ring made using s-p ds (2[SUP]nd[/SUP] half stitches) . My love of Josephines got the better of me & curiosity made me try out how the Josephines would turn out with self-padded stitches !

I used only 2 wraps & the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] half st (SHS) since I find it quicker & easier to handle than the FHS of s-p ds.

• In the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] segment of J. chain, the stitches were tatted ‘normally’ tension-wise (i.e. a bit tight) & snugged close together too.
• In the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] segment, I deliberately loosened the stitch, thus getting a broader wave !
• Josephine Ring made with 2-wrap SHS is almost twice the size of a normal J. Ring as can be seen in the pic.

I added a 4[SUP]th[/SUP] picture showing 5 wraps of the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] half stitch, just before closing it.

I must add that although I could not get the “braided” effect [I think I might’ve been sleep-deprived or hallucinating to see a “braid”, LOL], the texture is superb. As the wrap count increases, the stitches acquire a beaded effect in the variable s-p trial. Especially, I think, if one makes the FHS tight & the s-p SHS a little loose. Then one could get a ‘spiral’ or wavy cap.

Would love to get your feedback, inputs & criticism, as well as view any trials/projects made with this stitch.
This was a 'dry-run'
no real application of the stitch....

Thanks for reading through, if you have ;-))

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Having done these trials, I am now all muddled up about how this "wrapping" is different from Roll tatting !!! Need to get back to the learning table & check out tutorials :-(

Thanks for taking the time to run these experiments and post detailed pictures and information :)

I would have never thought to try wrapping the thread more than two times. It's interesting that the more times you wrap the thread, the more rope like it appears. You've come up with so many variations of the same theme. I wonder if this is how tatters have come up with new techniques in the past? I love history and stories and you've given me a glimpse into what it might have been like for the first tatters coming up with chains, Josephine knots and the like.

I think a blog post would be a nice way to catalogue your results :)

I will need a couple of days before I can take on testing these out using my needles. Some of those effects are amazing. The 5 wraps with the tight first half and looser 2nd half look like a variation on half closed j rings. The wave?? The people who need to know about these effects are the pattern designers.. I can imagine a 4 or 5 round onion ring with those wavy chains extending out from it.. looking sun-like. Wonderful details to the experiment. Your scientific training shows.

Wow, Muskaan! Your photographs are so clear.

I have been thinking about your original question in post #32 re a name that fits with what already exists. If we split the difference and use pds (padded ds), then this could be used with shorthand for the number of wraps thus: p(3)ds or pds(3).

In illustrations of both Rhoda Auld and Ruth Perry the wraps are situated on the upper side of the threads which appear in your 4th photo. While this shouldn't affect the final result, it may reduce the amount of thread and the twisting you are experiencing.

Hello Robin :-)
I was inspired by my superiors who contributed their knowledge & ideas to this thread & one thing just led to another. Moreover, one still needs to try the same with rings. I had another idea later but haven't tried it out yet :[1ds, 1 s-p 5 wraps ds] to required length. Now wouldn't that look like actual beads on a string ??? Hopefully I'll get a few minutes later to try it out (it is close to 4 am now & Craftree is also sending me to bed :-(.
I am always amazed & wonder at how the Very First knot or stitch (in knitting/crochet/tatting/etc.) came about ! And when ? .....
I also posted the trials : http://www.tipsaroundthehome.blogspot.in/2014/05/tatting-experimenting-with-stitch.html
and added relevant info in another page I've added about Tatting Resources, etc.

Hi Judy
You were the one who first suggested it all :-)
I do love the Josephine "wave" that has been created & would Love to see your 'sun' manifest itself in all its radiance ! So many other applications come to mind, too.
Here's a Mexican Wave to Judith & All you wonderful motivators here, without whom we would still be at sea


(how many 'wraps' do you think they require, LOL)

Thank you so much Judith ... means a lot to me :-)
Usha's repeated advice to "Shut off the flash" has finally paid off ;-)

p(3)ds does seem appropriate.
pds(3) just might get confused with 3 times pds ?

Now if it were a variable pds where the 1st & 2nd half stitches had different number of wraps ?

Oh yes, the wraps in the 4th photo are for the 2nd half of the stitch which, as I mentioned, is Much Much easier to make than a large number of wraps in !st half st. That, in fact, was the reason I did the Josephines using the 2nd half st.

Off the bed finally ...

Good Morning to you all

Muskaan, details are so very well drawn out and extremely well experimented. Thank you so much for taking care to posting it out the forum, since I guess the variations of a padding in DS is perhaps very little discussed or NIL.

I think the effect of padding that is being built-in, depends on the size of the thread used, Infact , my observation is a technique's visual effect and the size and type of thread go hand-in-hand. All the experts.. would have done so much thinking about this while bringing out the technique.

In all the variations of padding you posted, (I think you used #20) the one that has 2 wraps into the second half seems to give a beautiful padding and visual effect of ribs around the stitch. I guess the tension and the size of the thread played a lot bigger role in bringing out the visual effect in #3 and #4.

I was wondering about the applications of wavy chord that comes out in your #3 trial, may be a simple edging to start with. That reminds me of the buttonhole stitch again, that can cover up hanky edgings when done with #40 or any silk thread.

The number of wraps tend to make it more like crochet's bobble(??) stitch.

Multitude of applications, tempting again !

Judith, p(3)ds.. is very clear may be ..p[x][#]/p(#)[x] when repeated. May be time to standardize the notation and recommend into any organization that give us the stamp of notation.

Muskaan...

Beaded pds??

I know you turn to GGGGGGGGGGGGgrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Best Regards
Usha

Hello Usha !

An idea that I had in post #41, has now taken shape in the form of another trial. I have tried to obtain a beaded cord/chain effect using this stitch in 2 ways : (pl note that Both images are of the Same trial; I just wasn't sure which one showcased it better...)

In 1st half segment of cord (towards the left) I have alternated 1ds with 1pds(5). I kept the ds 'tight' & the pds 'normal' in tension. In reality, it looks & feels pretty nice - like tiny beads !
It would work so wonderfully in various applications.

In 2nd (right) half of the cord, I used Only pds(5), separated by a SLT. I used 2 different colors in the 2 shuttles & switched them with the SLT, so that one can see white 'beads' alternating with blue ones.
Not very nicely done ;
the SLTs seem to make the cord flip around a bit - it does not stay even. Or maybe I was SLT-ing wrongly..
Altho' both threads are from the same brand, same size (20), same purchase, the white appears thicker & stiffer as compared to the variegated blue !!! Hence the difference in the sts even tho' both were made with the exact same number of wraps.
This segment needs to be tried again for clearer results & inferences.

So, here is my contribution - a beaded cord with no beads (but bds ! )

Judith, I tried to use your notation. Does it look right ?
As Usha suggested, may be it is time to formalize & finalize the notation & where the brackets should be ?
As regards 'variable' halves in a pds, we could probably denote it as :
1pds(2,5) -- 1 padded double stitch where FHS has 2 wraps & SHS has 5 wraps
or another example
4pds(1,4) -- make 4 padded ds with FHS 1 wrap & SHS 4 wraps.

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I am wondering if you can do a padded lock chain rather than a shoelace trick. Do you think it would be more difficult to make the unflipped padded stitches?

Muskaan, the notation examples at the bottom look clear to me. 4pds(1,4). We have no authoritative body to name new stitches like the botanists have for new plants, or the French to approve new words. If we're out there using them, it becomes the de facto standard.

You're right there, Judy. And over time this has caused some of the confusion which exists today.

I agree that the notation Muskaan has written - 4pds(1,4) - is clear. After the two suggestions in my previous post - b(3)ds and bds(3) - it occurred to me that Muskaan's experiments with uneven half-stitches would need exactly what she has recorded. This is similar to the 4-4 of Victorian sets and split rings 8/8. As this serious application of padding/wrapping in double stitches has never been attempted before (in my recollection), Muskaan's notation is quite acceptable, and comprehensible. Let's use it and see how tatters respond.

Now you have rings to consider, Muskaan.