Craftree Forum Tree > InTatters Forums for Shuttle and Needle Tatting > Dora Young knot
Thread created on 1245198137 by JudithConnors.
Status: Open thread, open to all.
The Dora Young knot is a very handy join which can be used to link on a curve to a space/picot berlow the work, e.g. coils/Catherine wheels. In addition, it keeps the appearance of your work regular.
This knot/join should not be confused with Dora's knotless method which is used in the techniques of knotless method ring and km chain.
To form the DY knot, start with a usual shuttle/lock join, but keep the thread slack. Then pull the thread backwards through the picot/space to the reverse side of the work. There will be a loop through which you can pass the shuttle to form what looks like a double stitch on top of the picot/space.
Judith.
This sounds pretty interesting.
Do you have a diagram / photos to help explain this visually?
Is this similar to a "Catherine Wheel Join"? It sounds very useful. I'd like to see a visual too, please, if one is available.
Marilee
Are you saying that this is the same as a Catherine Wheel Join? You said "e.g. catherine wheel", but I'm not sure if you are saying that they are the same things with different names. I with Monica and Yarnplayer on wanting a visual/diagram if possible.
I learned "Dora Young Knots" from Teri Dusenbury's Butterfly book.
I just tried the "Catherine Wheel" method from SnowGoose.
My opinion: they are different procedures, but there are similarities in result. I think they are different in the sense that the DYK is done with the shuttle thread, and the CW is done with the ball thread, but they are alike in the sense that they are a full double stitch join.
Differences:
1.a. DYK's joins are made with the shuttle/core thread
1.b. CW joins are made with the ball thread (or the shuttle thread acting like the ball)
2.a. DYK instructions DO NOT show making the DYK (with the shuttle thread) AROUND the ball thread
2.b. CW joins show making the CW (with the ball thread) AROUND the shuttle thread
Differences yet similarities:
1.a. It is possible to use the CW procedure with the shuttle thread to produce a DYK.
1.b. It is possible to use the DYK procedure with the ball thread to produce a CCW.
Similarities:
ASIDE: Teiko Fujito's "Tatted Fashion" book shows making a single loop join using the ball thread instead of the shuttle thread, btw, so there are a couple possiblilites for the single loop "shuttle (or ball) thread join as well.
Thanks for posting this thread! I learned something new to apply to my tatting patterns!
rexenne on you tube has a wonderful video of the dora young knot. for us visual learners.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weQTwP6n6Uo"]YouTube - Dora the Young Knot[/ame] makes it look so easy! Thanks for letting us know about this.
Oh thank you so much for posting the video! I was trying to figure out how to find things on utube (don't get around much)
always something new to learn ;))))
If you analyse the CW join with the auxiliary thread (encapsulating the #1 shuttle thread) you will find that it is actually the Dora Young knot. Dora's knot can be done with either thread. The auxiliary thread join allows the core thread to tension the curvature around the outside of a coil/Catherine wheel.
Dora briefly described her knot in her self-published book in 1974. Teri Dusenbury applied it (and named it) in her book, 'Tatting Butterflies' in 1997. While most tatters have found the knot/join very useful, they have overlooked/forgotten that Dora introduced it to us. I have described it as an entry in both editions of my 'Illustrated Dictionary of Tatting'.
You may also find Dora's knot labelled 'split chain (knot) join', an 'onion ring join' by some designers. I know that confusion exists, so this is why it is good to look at all techniques with an open mind. History (and experience) are good teachers.
Judith.
Unfortunately, the YouTube demo is Dora Young's knotless method, as used in split chain, bridging and the knotless method ring (aka 'mock split ring').
The DY knot is made by an entirely different method which starts like a shuttle/lock join.
Judith.
But the YouTube demo does start like a shuttle join and then goes back under the core thread that leads into the ring (which substitutes for the picot in the row below), doesn't it? I drew myself a picture and the demo does exactly the same thing. Am I seeing things?
This thread was so helpful!
Thanks all - especially for the video. Easy Peasy!
Fox
I was amazed at how different the instructions for the Catherine Wheel were compared to the Dora Young Knot, yet when substituting one procedure for the other the results were the same.
I was wondering how Teri Dusenbury's instructions corresponded with Dora Young's patent. There is more in her patent than the DYK: some different applications. You can get a copy of this patent online at the US Patent office:
Search for patent number: 4008643
What pulls up initially is the text; click the images button at the bottom of the webpage to pull up the document with drawings.
The DY knot is made by an entirely different method which starts like a shuttle/lock join.
Judith.
This thread has been so educational - thank you so much!
But I'm still confused - I thought that the knot used in the split chain was the Dora Young knot.
In my experiments, the Catherine Wheel join creates a DS like split chain tatting does, encapsulates the core thread, and the DS made is in line with upper round where the join is made.
The Dora Young Knot, when joining a chain coming down to join the row below in the completed work makes a quasi DS below the line of the tatting above. In other words, the DYK makes a point as a chain comes down to meet the previous row. It's very nice, but I don't think it is interchangable with the Catherine Wheel join.
Has anyone else had different results?
'Catherine Wheel' is the modern name for the traditional solid coil. (See Julia Sanders' "Tatting Patterns", the republication of patterns from 1915. There the coils were actually kept in shape by sewing at the back.)
As you have found, there are a couple of joins called 'Catherine Wheel join', but both of these use Dora Young's techniques - (a) two loops of her knotless method, or (b) the Dora Young knot. For (a) refer to the Snowgoose site and MSN group site for needle tatters. For (b) see Debbie Arnold's description on http://www.ds9designs.com/patterns_free/CatherineWheelJoin.pd. In all the examples, the auxiliary/ball thread is used to make the join while encapsulating the #1 shuttle thread. It's still the same join whichever thread you choose to use.
It is unfortunate that since about 1990 some joins have been named after the positions in which they are used, e.g. CW join and onion ring join. As some tatters know, there are three joins that can be applied to onion rings.
Rather than remember joins by the position/construction where they are needed, just apply the joins you already know. (picot join, split ring 2nd half, Dora Young knot/join with either #1 or #2 shuttle, Anne Dyer's join to the smooth side, slope & roll join.) With these five joins you can tackle anything.
Judith.
The Dora Young knot is a JOIN between two sections of tatting. Since there is a misunderstanding/confusion with her knotless method, it would be wise to refer to it as the Dora Young Join (DYJ). The DYJ is a tidy join which links on a curve without causing the 'dip' created when using a lock/shuttle join. It can be used to link to picots/very small spaces, in Catherine Wheel/coil constructions,onion rings. How do you make the DYJ?
Scenario: (2 shuttles, fine crochet hook, e.g. 0.6mm) You have tatted a chain around a ring or coil, up to a very small picot or two double stitches where you want to join.
Leave extra space after the last ds and then draw the #1 shuttle thread through the picot to form a very loose lock/shuttle join. Keep the threads slack. Gently tug on the extra space to pull the whole join backwards through the picot to the reverse side of the work. It may 'pop' as you do this. You will notice a bar/thread across the loop at the back. Enlarge this while snugging the threads against the last ds on the chain. Then pass the shuttle front to back through the enlarged loop and adjust it on top of the picot. There will be what looks like a double stitch on top of the picot.
If you choose to use the #2 shuttle for the Doar Young join, make sure that you encapsulate the #1 thread as you make the join. Voila!
Judith.
Rather than remember joins by the position/construction where they are needed, just apply the joins you already know. (picot join, split ring 2nd half, Dora Young knot/join with either #1 or #2 shuttle, Anne Dyer's join to the smooth side, slope & roll join.) With these five joins you can tackle anything.
Judith.
Now we need definitions and instructions for all of these I think. :-)
Thanks, Krystledawne.
The lock/shuttle join can be included with that five, too, taking the count to six. If you have been tatting for awhile, you already know the picot join (upward and downward) and the shuttle/lock join. They're a tatter's 'bread and butter'.
Unfortunately, the computer where I'm working isn't fitted for photos and diagrams, let alone YouTube. (Apologies to the visual learners out there!) So you may have to wade through lots of text. How do you feel about that?
Judith.
I've been unable to access the www.ds9designs.com webpages, which show the slope and roll join (I don't think I know this one). Is anyone else having problems viewing this website?
Thanks for listening!
The lock/shuttle join can be included with that five, too, taking the count to six. If you have been tatting for awhile, you already know the picot join (upward and downward) and the shuttle/lock join. They're a tatter's 'bread and butter'.
Unfortunately, the computer where I'm working isn't fitted for photos and diagrams, let alone YouTube. (Apologies to the visual learners out there!) So you may have to wade through lots of text. How do you feel about that?
Judith.
I'm wondering.....you don't list the Lark Head Picot Join....I use it almost always, invisible for sure. Is it similar to one of the other joins you have listed? oh and I don't mind text. I might bother you for a week for help though!
Krystaldawne:
THANK YOU! ... for mentioning that Lark's Head Picot join: I put the term in a search engine and found it on Georgia Seitz's website. This one was new to me: can't wait to try it out -- thanks!
If you like it let me know.... I figured out a way of doing it without having to take everything off your hands to accomplish it. I could try to explain.
Re: the lark's head picot join
You can achieve the same result with either version of the Catherine Wheel Join (aka Dora Young Knot/Join). That's why I've whittled the essential joins in tatting down to the six stated above.
Without getting into a lengthy debate, 'lark's head' describes the appearance of the hitch/knot/stitch of tatting. The CWJ and the DYJ both resemble a lark's head, irrespective of how they are formed. So does reverse tatting, etc, etc.
If you simplify you tatting, you won't have to worry the next time a new term is coined and published. Time is too short to keep amassing all the so-called 'new' ideas that really 're-invent the wheel'. Stick to the basic six.
Judith.