Lost in Translation - Julia E. Sanders errata

Hi Lynn, Thanks for the note! I'm not too far along yet, but I'll try to take some pictures soon.

I refer to them as "caterpillars" because, well, that's what they look like to me. They are made up of Rings of 2-2-2-2, 13 pair of Chains of 5-5, and at the end, there are 5 chains of 4 between rings. These are not included in the pattern, at least, not where I could find them, so I sorta had to guess and create them myself.

Here's the pic I did just after finishing them, I can take a better pic of my join points if you need it.

Hope that helps! And glad to see you back home at Intatters! I'm really glad I'm not the only tatter doing this one, and I'm on the edge of my seat to see yours in all the brilliant colors!

Attachment:

Oh, I forgot to add, there are 200 rings that make up the eight large Petals of the central flower. Making them is...wearing. I'm using the Magic Thread method, using #20 thread that I carry with me to pull the end thread through the last ring and last chain, then I use a surgeon's knot (a simple knot as close as possible to the work) to secure it. I don't even worry about wadding it up to throw it in my bag. It takes about 10-20 seconds to pull and tie, and then I'm off to the next motif, no worries about later work weaving in. I probably don't need the surgeon's knots, but I'm paranoid about them working out again.

Agree that you certainly don't want them unravelling on you! What's a surgeon's knot? Is it the same as a square knot or reef knot?

Basically, you make a deliberate knot in the thread, and tighten it down a close as possible to the work. That leaves a little bump that will keep the thread from sliding out after you've pulled it through using the magic thread method.

Grace, you might be interested in these youtube videos for the surgeon's knot. Basically, it's a type of square knot. If you must knot, you may be happier with a weaver's knot.

Thanks for those videos! So a surgical knot could be the same as a square or reef knot, or it could be a surgeon's knot.

I do tie a knot - makes me feel safer! I will experiment with the weaver's knot, since you can slide that into position before popping it to tighten.

Isn't a weaver's knot for the middle of the thread? It's not really useful in tatting, as you can't pull a weaver's knot through a ring. However, I'm thinking we might be talking at cross purposes here. I'm not talking about continuing from a broken thread, but instead making a stop for the end of a thread after pulling it through the stitches of the final ring to finish a motif.

Okay, did a little more research. The type of surgeon's knot I was talking about was one that someone called a surgeon's knot which, like in all crafts, apparently has many meanings. The closest I could find to what I was looking for was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2nczE9YsWQ a knot used in beading. Basically it's the first half of a square knot that you slide down close to the work.

Grace, I tried the weaver's knot last night. It does leave a slight bump, albeit Very small, which cannot be pulled through. I used it at the very beginning. Pattern called for ball & shuttle threads And I had to start with a Chain. Hence made the knot, snipped off one end close to the knot & the tail at the other end, I hide within the 1st few ds. If I'd tried to hide Both tails inside the 1st chain, it would've become too bulky/thick. This double 'precaution' seemed to allay my paranoia about a knot opening & neatness...
(( In case of starting with a ring , I usually hide one tail within the ring & the other tail in the chain that follows, distributing the thickness evenly. ))

When I upload photos, I will point out where the knot was made - not visible At All !

Wodentoad, thank you for posting that video. What you call a surgeon's knot is actually an overhand knot. For a bona fide surgeon's knot, see some of the youtube videos - made by surgeons!

Beading knot, Weaving knot, crewel knot, overhand knot, half square knot, granny knot.... Heh, for about a month I did Chinese knots, and I'm the mother, wife, sister, daughter, step-daughter, granddaughter, niece, niece, niece, niece AND great niece of boy scouts. You'd think I'd know my knots by now!

I suspect the naming of knots is a subject neither quickly nor easily exhausted. There are just so many of them, and it seems some disciplines or crafts like to rename them.

Ah! So now I get what you mean, Wodentoad, about having a bump in the thread so the thread doesn't slide further than you want. Yeah, that could be useful, too, in adding thread.

I'm afraid we are getting rather off the topic of your splendid tablecloth...

Personally, I think it's right on topic. This project is not just about taking this 1915 piece into the 21st century (Suddenly, I realize, it would be AMAZING if I could finish it for it's 100th anniversary) but also about improving my own skills as a tatter. I find the various ways that threads are joined, rings, picots, and chains are made, motifs are finished, all of it to be quite pertinent to the conversation as it helps everyone!

Put if we MUST stay on topic well then, I've finished four of eight sections of the next to last row, however, downside of tatting with a bad cold (it kicked my butt!) I managed to skip a ring. I'll have to cut through the problem area and then tat back over, correcting the mistake. I've done this sort of repair before (oh joy!) and it's better than re-doing the whole row.

Attachment:

Attachment:

Wow wow wow!! Every time I see your piece laid out like that, I feel so much awe! Well, it's just one ring you missed - it'll be fixed in no time.

Well, if you'd be interested, I'll share some thoughts about adding thread that I've been having while tatting the Renulek doily. Since I'm using so many colours, I have lots of occasions to hide ends at the beginning, middle and end of a round.

As of this point, in starting with two threads or adding thread, I reckon I want to tat over tails, not sew them in. But for the bit of thread being used in the pattern that's next to the tail, I want it to be making knots as the working thread, not lying flat as the core thread. Then there's less chance that the thread can pull out. So I've been adding thread in a different way from before. When starting a round, I used to hide the ring end in the ring, and the chain end along the core of the chain, but then I felt insecure about the chain end - would it pull out? So, now I hide the tail of the chain working thread in the ring, then straightway the chain thread is making knots. And then I hide end from the ring thread in the core of the chain. Once or twice I ended up with two ends to tat over in addition to the core thread, but I'm trying to plan better so I can avoid that. I haven't started using the weaver's knot so far, but I reckon it gives me more options in how I want to position the old and new threads.

And also I've been using the Blue Tack method (thread end stuck to the shuttle with Blue Tack) to tat over tails. That enables me to carry the ends through more stitches and make them more secure. So now I carry them through a whole ring or chain before trimming them off.

When I finish, I feel better if I tie a knot somewhere before sewing in the ends. So, say, when attaching the last chain to the first ring, I cut the ends, hook the core thread through to the back, tie a square knot or reef knot, then sew in the ends. (I used to make a lock join to attach the chain, but the chain didn't sit so well.)

Grace, I understand about hiding the ends in all different ways, but you make me very curious as to how you plan to use this doily. It sounds like you're foreseeing it used as a trampoline or something, as secure as you make your knots. I usually just tat over tails or sew under caps for three or four stitches, and nothing has ever come undone. Of course, none of my doilies have ever been athletically inclined. Oh, and I shuttle tat. As loose as my stitches are when I needle tat, I could totally see being a lot more careful about hiding ends there. And now you know that I've never tatted anything much bigger than a butterfly or flower with my needles.

Well, Lynn, I suppose this is my particular manifestation of OCD! Or perhaps I'm practising for when I really need the tatting to be strong, e.g., for earrings, or tatting on clothing. I'm currently still sewing my first doily onto a cushion - I hope its knots will stand up to some wear. The Renulek doily - well, a couple of people have suggested that I frame it, so then the knots really don't have to be that secure. On the other hand, this afternoon I finished a dangle with an SSSR to hide the ends, and then the SSSR pulled apart! I won't be trying that way of hiding my ends any more...

Okay, the repair work is done... took about two hours, but it's finished and I've started on the fifth section. It takes 2-3 days to finish one, but I get distracted (I'm attempting to teach my seven year old boy to crochet). At least now, I've got a goal.

Now you've got a goal? Now? How ever did you do all that tatting, retrotatting, cutting out, and retatting up till now without a goal? You make me smile. Or are you talking about teaching your son to crochet? That's smile worthy too. Do you feel like the end is finally in sight now? One thing I'm curious about - what kind of fabric are you planning to use for the insets? Do you plan on something of a solid color, or something with a black and white embroidery on it?

GraceT said:

Well, Lynn, I suppose this is my particular manifestation of OCD! Or perhaps I'm practising for when I really need the tatting to be strong, e.g., for earrings, or tatting on clothing. I'm currently still sewing my first doily onto a cushion - I hope its knots will stand up to some wear. The Renulek doily - well, a couple of people have suggested that I frame it, so then the knots really don't have to be that secure. On the other hand, this afternoon I finished a dangle with an SSSR to hide the ends, and then the SSSR pulled apart! I won't be trying that way of hiding my ends any more...

I find it fascinating how different tatters obsess over different parts of their tatting. For me, it's those little mistakes that ultimately won't really affect the integrity of the work, like joining to the wrong picot or tatting too many or too few DS in a chain, or forgetting that I'm doing F/Bside tatting. That means retrotatting - no matter how far back the mistake is. I'm a champion retrotatter. Imagine barbells in this little guy's hands LOL. I have fiddled with the SSSR for hiding ends after reading all the glowing remarks PattyD had about them. I also cannot make them work. I know it's me, and you'd think my OCD would make me attack it till I figured it out. But the truth is, I'm happy with tatting over tails and sewing under caps, and that SSSR is hard. So I'm taking the easy way out on that one.

Well, teaching my son to crochet is... challenging. I really am not good at it, and we are both frustrated. I think I'm going to give him a little break from my pitiful attempts and pick it up again next week.

As for the goal, I would love to have this thing completely finished in time for the 100th anniversary of the publication of the original pattern. I'm probably just going to use a lightweight preferably loose weave cotton cloth for the cloth inserts, probably in black.

Sometimes I do retrotat, but in this case, I simply cut through the trouble spot, worked back a little way one either side, and then pulled the threads through. If the mistake is not bad, usually I'll either leave it--in the case of a miscounted ring in a previous row that had four picots rather than five--or if it's close, I'll back-tat until I'm to it, and fix it. If it's one that's going to fundamentally alter the piece, such as a recent large mistake, then usually I'll either cut out the trouble spot or cut back the row depending on where the problem is. For this, I want it to be mostly right. There are several mistakes here and there that I've just left in because they aren't going to affect the final piece. Oh sure it won't win Miss America, but it's pretty enough to place in "Miss Hog Hollow."

Well, it's not just prettiness that counts. Your tablecloth is a giant among recently tatted works! That gives it a worth all its own.

Lynn, at one time I was using the SSSR all over the place. And then I was really taken with the method that hides two ends at once by using one thread to pull the other thread into the tunnel. But now I'm happy with sewing in ends (after tying a reef knot ).

No, no. More like Miss Awesome on steroids!

I think this piece looks wonderful. As it is such a large project it is unlikely anyone will really see the 'mistakes' - anyway, they are what will make it unique, as it is a piece with a wonderful story - and a huge following :)