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What is the NAME of this JOIN ?

F021e090509a545b9a72e368067ca336232ddf6b

Thread created on 1409018928 by muskaan.
Status: Open thread, open to all.



6fe0e0e89f8bfb3c10fe5520538c97250cddb8fb
In
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I have been doing a join which I haven't yet seen anywhere. I realize that it may have been done before, obviously, but have no name for it ... my searches (limited to the net) have not led to any success.
I will explain the sequence .... Could any of you experienced & expert tatters help with the name of this join ?
Temporarily, in order to write out a pattern, I have termed it "Wrap Join" (WJ)

It can be made when one is working with 2 shuttles or a shuttle & ball :

To make this join :

  • Bring Sh1 thread up through picot/space to make a loop (as in normal picot joins) ;
  • Pass Sh2 through this loop;
  • TUG at Sh1 thread to PULL DOWN Sh2 thread ;
  • And simultaneously snug the wrap/join. It should become smooth & allow the previous stitches to move freely on the core thread ie. Sh1 thread. (it does not lock the stitches)

    Any help is greatly appreciated.
    Thanks for reading through.


Noavatar
S

Is it another way to make a Dora Young join? - the end result sounds the same.


F19fd0025560187f17100f94e57d428be0207a3b
Us
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I believe the Dora Young Knot actually makes a flip in a sneaky way. The method that Muskaan is talking about is more of a method to join with the outer (working) thread of the second element, especially when in the case of tatting above the finished element as in block tatting. The picot on the finished element gets a loop of the working thread of the element in progress. Then the core thread goes through the loop of working thread. While maintaining tension on the core thread from the element in progress, the loop that was taken through the picot of the finished element is reduced to make the join inconspicuous AND maintain the ability of the core thread to still slide through the DS made after the join.

Teiko Fujito calls this the "outer thread joining method".

Dora Young does not name this join (I have her book) because she was mostly concerned with the methods to make split rings and chains. Although her method of making a split ring is more like making a normal chain for the first half of a ring and then a split chain for the second half of the chain. Which isn't a bad idea if a normal split ring won't do.

Another thing about Dora's pattern designs is that they are clearly tatted interpretations of standard crochet patterns for pinwheel and pineapple doilies, with mixed results in tatting. Some of her patterns are units that combine to create a larger pattern and effect as they are joined together.


9c488e40f30393772d490f18ebd46dada9cdc702
De
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I think this is the same as pulling Sh2 thread DOWN through the picot and then pass Sh1 through the loop. I don't know what it's called, but it would be a join on the backside of the work (backside join?).


F77dc1fb8d8d36f6fa22aa8545bbdbb0f6df7c60
Au
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Sorry I can't quite visualise this join... But what would be the outcome of this join? How is it different to the up or down join? Does it end up looking like only half a stitch?


F57339e99c5de1468b7f9cec2e3a35d730c579eb
Sg
S

As I visualise it, it looks like what you do when you make a join on the second side of a split ring...


F19fd0025560187f17100f94e57d428be0207a3b
Us
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Yes, but the split side join ends up on the front to contribute to something that looks like a DS. The outer thread join is meant to be inconspicuous and handles different colors well.


6fe0e0e89f8bfb3c10fe5520538c97250cddb8fb
In
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Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions :-)

Patty has hit the nail on the 'head' ! You have described and visualised it Perfectly, Patty.

It is not a DYJ, Maureen, as Patty has already explained.

Achim , carpediem, & Grace ,
It is different from a backside or Down Join :
If you make a down loop with Sh2 and pass Sh1 thru it, it will not be a smooth continuous ('regular') wrap.
In DJ, you will still see a colour blip, albeit on the other side.

In this 'outer thread joining method, there is NO BLIP whatsoever ! It is perfect for dimensional tatting when both sides might be visible, as in case of flowers, etc.

Imagine that you are Roll tatting a Chain & need to make a join. When this join is used, it appears as if just another wrap has been done ; No Caps as in ds or a half stitch.

I will post a picture tomorrow (from my compy) where I've used this join - for which I'm writing the pattern. It is a sneak peak so hope it stays in the forum ;-)))


2bf6f0fbcfbe9fd70723c2d1f0ee22e322bcfd8f
Cn
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This sounds like what Jane Eborall did with her no blips join. The PDF can be found here.


F19fd0025560187f17100f94e57d428be0207a3b
Us
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As far as roll tatting goes, I have taken a different path than the traditional methods of joining. If I am roll tatting a ring or a chain and need to join to a picot, I just start an up join and then I don't finish the second half.

If I need to join to a roll tatted element, again I just do an up join and don't finish the second half.

The traditional methods made me scratch my head. The instructions were to work a ds or 2, make the join in either direction, work another ds or 2 and then continue with the roll tatting. I found this set of methods as overkill. I like to keep my roll tatting as roll tatting from start to finish.

By simply working the first half of a join, the appearance of the roll tatting is preserved and the join is just fine.


6fe0e0e89f8bfb3c10fe5520538c97250cddb8fb
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Lynn said:

This sounds like what Jane Eborall did with her no blips join. The PDF can be found here.

Thanks for the link, Lynn :-))
During my search for a name for this join, I did stumble across this.
There are a couple of differences (the similarity is that a loop is pulled back down, with a caveat ...) ----

  1. In the pdf, the working thread loop is passed through picot & core thread shuttle is then passed through this loop.
    *** In my case, it is the reverse.

  2. The core thread is pulled down through the picot.
    *** The working thread is pulled down through the picot.

  3. Consequently what is wrapped is the working thread.
    *** The core thread gets wrapped.

  4. One additional step where the Sh1 is passed back to make a kind of knot/wrap.
    *** No additional step.

Jane's technique works excellently, as seen in the photographs !
The one I used is much simpler, almost like a beginner's join, and very very quick. One can almost call it a Cheater's CWJ (hassle-free) ;-))

I said I'd share pics ... I found some from an earlier leaf trials where both the front & back have been clicked. It is a 2-shuttle piece done in one pass. One shuttle is loaded with light green & the other a darker green thread. The leaves themselves are not the best ( I was trying out too many things at the same time), and photographing them was a trial in itself because they were very 3-dimensional & no angle captured the pattern/shape effectively. For the pair, I actually had to pin the leaves down (needles visible).

pic 1 : Front view
pic 2 : Back view
pic 3 : both leaves together.

intatters-attachmentintatters-attachmentintatters-attachment

Attachment:

1 front.jpg

Attachment:

2 back.jpg

Attachment:

3.jpg


6fe0e0e89f8bfb3c10fe5520538c97250cddb8fb
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Patty, this is excellent advice ! No wonder your roll tatting in free-form pieces is so neat, smooth, even !

I forget whether I did a ds at the end of the RT chain segment ; I definitely did not do one at the beginning. Anyways, henceforth, I will keep your joining tip in mind. :-)))

PattyD said:

As far as roll tatting goes, I have taken a different path than the traditional methods of joining. If I am roll tatting a ring or a chain and need to join to a picot, I just start an up join and then I don't finish the second half.

If I need to join to a roll tatted element, again I just do an up join and don't finish the second half.

The traditional methods made me scratch my head. The instructions were to work a ds or 2, make the join in either direction, work another ds or 2 and then continue with the roll tatting. I found this set of methods as overkill. I like to keep my roll tatting as roll tatting from start to finish.

By simply working the first half of a join, the appearance of the roll tatting is preserved and the join is just fine.


6fe0e0e89f8bfb3c10fe5520538c97250cddb8fb
In
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Here's another pair of leaves (for the Maga Hibiscus) where again 2 colors were used but within the same leaf. I made a couple of errors in the left leaf (which was tatted first), hence some blips are visible. The 2nd leaf, using this same join, is blip-free.
intatters-attachment

I realize that these should've been done in thinner thread for better visual appeal & neater tatting....... have to buy size 40 in my next purchase ;-)

So, can we name the join a 'Wrap Join' if nothing better comes up ?

Attachment:

maga leaves 2.jpg


12be48bad645eb6d2a2b5b1860b1695eca5eea96
Au
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I feel that you are making the 'slope and roll' join of Deb Arnold, or even Anne Dyer's 'join to the smooth side'. They both make the loop with the auxiliary thread first, which your flipping accomplishes when you pull on the No. 1 thread.

Deb Arnold used to have directions for her join online. Anne's join is illustrated in 'To Boldly Go Where No Shuttle has Gone Before'.


Last edited 1409195570 by JudithConnors.

12be48bad645eb6d2a2b5b1860b1695eca5eea96
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PattyD said:

Dora Young does not name this join .. because she was mostly concerned with the methods to make split rings and chains. Although her method of making a split ring is more like making a normal chain for the first half of a ring and then a split chain for the second half of the chain. Which isn't a bad idea if a normal split ring won't do.

Although Dora Young made the join, Teri Dusenbury named it in honour of Dora in 1997.

Dora was really concerned with her knotless method of hitches, which allowed tatters to move from one row/element to another without having to end off....that is, knotless.

Dora devised the knotless method ring first, using one shuttle and a ball thread. The km double hitches are formed directly onto a fixed space. [Some tatters call it the mock split ring. Others have used Dora's idea to develop single shuttle split rings.] Refer to my blog on Types of Rings: http://www.intatters.com/entry.php?1366-Types-of-Rings-in-Tatting.

The knotless method chain (now called 'split chain') is actually the km ring opened out into a line and linked to another place.


F57339e99c5de1468b7f9cec2e3a35d730c579eb
Sg
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I'm very interested to use this - especially because of the no-blips aspect! I didn't realise at first that it was a downward join (like the lock join or CWJ). I wonder if the same sort of thing can be done upwards (like a picot join).


6fe0e0e89f8bfb3c10fe5520538c97250cddb8fb
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Judith Connors said:

I feel that you are making the 'slope and roll' join of Deb Arnold, or even Anne Dyer's 'join to the smooth side'. They both make the loop with the auxiliary thread first, which your flipping accomplishes when you pull on the No. 1 thread.

Deb Arnold used to have directions for her join online. Anne's join is illustrated in 'To Boldly Go Where No Shuttle has Gone Before'.

Dear Judith,
You are right :-) I have done the slope & roll join earlier, & even checked it while searching for a name. But I was so focused on the wrap that I did not take into account the fact that even though the start is different, the end result might be the same !!!
In fact even Jane Eborall's No Blips technique Actually starts off with the slope & roll join, even though it is not specifically mentioned. ( I don't know which came first).

Nothing like Doing it to confirm whether the difference in initial steps converts into difference in outcome. Here's my tiny piece :
Pic 1 is front view , pic 2 is back view.
Red Arrows point to the 'wrap' join ;
Black arrows point to the 'slope & roll' join [I think I made a mistake - probably twisted the loop - in 2nd s & r join, but the 1st one is correct, ....]

intatters-attachment intatters-attachment

Thank you so much for the clarity.

Attachment:

1.jpg

Attachment:

2.jpg


12be48bad645eb6d2a2b5b1860b1695eca5eea96
Au
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Great pictures, Muskaan!

The join could even be Anne Dyer's as she mentions joining to the 'smooth' side of the core thread. Both Deb Arnold's and Anne Dyer's joins have been around for years (mid-1990s) so they precede Jane's technique.

I'll try posting my illustrations from an IOLI class I conducted in 2009.


6fe0e0e89f8bfb3c10fe5520538c97250cddb8fb
In
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Thanks, Judith :-
I am really looking forward to your illustrations , and building on my learning process ...

My overall thoughts :
The S & R roll creates a nice "roll" on the back side.
And if one is looking for "indented" chains, I think this join is a nice option. CWJ creates a continuum, with no indentation.

Plus this is very easy to do. I found that the way I did it (wrap join style) is even easier in the sense that the hand motions remain "continuous", undisputed, ...
And great for blip-free tatting.

But it does create a wee bit of dimension -- the tatting moves under .... as seen in the purple chain pics.

My thanks, again, to everyone for their inputs & thoughts. It was all worth it :-)


6fe0e0e89f8bfb3c10fe5520538c97250cddb8fb
In
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PattyD said:

As far as roll tatting goes, I have taken a different path than the traditional methods of joining. If I am roll tatting a ring or a chain and need to join to a picot, I just start an up join and then I don't finish the second half.

If I need to join to a roll tatted element, again I just do an up join and don't finish the second half.

The traditional methods made me scratch my head. The instructions were to work a ds or 2, make the join in either direction, work another ds or 2 and then continue with the roll tatting. I found this set of methods as overkill. I like to keep my roll tatting as roll tatting from start to finish.

By simply working the first half of a join, the appearance of the roll tatting is preserved and the join is just fine.

Dear Patty,
I did a roll tatting trial based on your tip :
no ds at start of chain ;
no ds at end of chain ;
used my version of the Slope and Roll join,
And it looked So beautiful !
Looking closely, I found that I was earlier making a ds at end of chain, just before joining. Now, without that cap, it is just superb !

I will also try with the fhs join in my next attempt --- storing your excellent tip for now.
Thank you so much for sharing it ! :-)


12be48bad645eb6d2a2b5b1860b1695eca5eea96
Au
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Here are two lesser-used joins for your tatting. Both are used with picots below the work, rather than use the dipping, fixed shuttle/lock join. Both allow the core thread to run, and the upper row of double stitches remains curved. You can use them with onion rings and Catherine wheels.

  1. The slope and roll join of Deb Arnold (S-RJ), and 2. Anne Dyer's 'join to the smooth side', which I'll shorten to 'smooth side join' (SSJ) for convenience.

  2. intatters-attachmentThe S-RJ is fairly obvious from this illustration. The shuttle passes through a loop of the auxiliary thread, is tensioned, and followed by a second-half-stitch.

  3. The SSJ is slightly different from any joins we have tried before. It uses the extended bottom of a finished half-stitch as the loop, that is, the smooth side. When the SSJ is finished the picot sits very neatly below the row of double stitches.

intatters-attachmentAnne Dyer's 'join to the smooth side', my abbreviated SSJ.

P.S. If you use my illustrations, please acknowledge my work by leaving my initials in the illustrations. They are copyright.

Attachment:

img022.jpg

Attachment:

img002.jpg


Last edited 1409437934 by JudithConnors.

771be6069cad469ea46a4c82ec0799f95ccb33bd
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Thanks Judith :).


Noavatar
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They look easier than the Dora Young join! - or maybe I am just not understanding how they are meant to work..........


12be48bad645eb6d2a2b5b1860b1695eca5eea96
Au
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These two joins try to effect a link that fits under the core thread. See muskaan's photos above where the join is on the smooth side of the stitches.

The Dora Young join does the same, but puts a neat 'top' on the join so that it looks like a double stitch. In onion rings and Catherine wheels you hardly notice the DYJ. It can be used normally at picots, too, so that is why it has been called the 'lark's head picot join'.

Once you get used to them, Maureen, they are as easy as one another.